Shoutbox

[Endzone]

So I just found out today that I've been selected to be on the UPA Club Season Restructuring Task Force.

Basically, I get to fly out to Boulder on May 1st/2nd to discuss what changes should be made to the Club Season to make it better run and managed. (by first not doing what they did to the college season). More information on the restructure is here: http://www.upa.org/club/restructure

I'm really excited about this opportunity to make some positive changes to the sport and be on the ground level of it all. If anybody (especially you old guys) has any suggestions or ideas about changes that should be made, please send me a message or chat with me at practice about it.

[DougFunnie13]

My biggest complaint is the growth wildcards. Other than maybe re-drawing the regions and reworking the wildcards I don't think much else needs to change.

[Endzone]

Other than maybe re-drawing the regions and reworking the wildcards

That's the big thing me and Terrell are pushing for (Terrell is also going). I personally think we should do 8 regions like in college to lessen the travel time for teams. I think 6 is not enough. However, I think we should redraw new regions (not like the college 8) to take in consideration big cities and proximity of teams. (ie..it's not fair that tulsa and fayetteville are 1 1/2 away and in different regions...when the next closest competitive club team to fayetteville is ?????) Most of the regions have complaints about travel times to Regionals.

I'm not for sure what kind of wildcard system I'm in favor of yet.

I don't think much else needs to change.

Really?
Cause the UPA is looking at changing everything and will probably try it. That's why I want to make sure they do it right.
They want a Regular Season.
They want a Division II Championships (How should this be determined?)

Any thoughts?

[P-TAC]

I think as far as re-draw goes, even if there isn't one or not an ideal one, they need to get rid of the 5 out of region/10 out of section limit to a roster. Maybe just re-word into a proximity of Teams local. Cause i can play with as many people I want from Omaha, NE which is what 6 hours away, but can only play with 5 from Fayetteville. I would say go with a 200 mile rule or something of that nature for out of region teams, and have no limit on out of section.

I don't see how they do a Division 2 in club, because teams are here today and gone tomorrow. Plus who's to say who belongs in which, and only 1 Region has elected D2 Club. I would say there's a demand for it, especially amongst young teams, but then again most teams want to try against the best to see where there at. Don't know if they just want a D2 with teams electing for it like they have now, or if your talking about starting a whole new division from scratch.

One way would be to do it like other Adult Club sports do, have an A division and a B division. Teams can apply for either, if you are really bad for an extended time(sometimes just 2 years) in A division you get put in B, if you are a consistently good team, and this can mean consecutive trips to the final four etc. in B, you are required to move up to A. Although these leagues often have consistent teams, and new teams are usually required to start in B or even C divisions.

I think a club regular season would end up being a total cluster f*ck, kind of like college has been. Between "try-out" tourneys, elite divisions, A divisions, B divisions, I don't see what numbers they would go by. Lots of Club tourneys don't let everyone compete for the title. All the best tourneys seem to only occur on the Coasts, making midwest teams travel much farther for anything. The only way I can think of is if they go to the 2 Division set up, and have a counting regular season for A division, and our typical system for B.

[Endzone]

I think as far as re-draw goes, even if there isn't one or not an ideal one, they need to get rid of the 5 out of region/10 out of section limit to a roster. Maybe just re-word into a proximity of Teams local. Cause i can play with as many people I want from Omaha, NE which is what 6 hours away, but can only play with 5 from Fayetteville. I would say go with a 200 mile rule or something of that nature for out of region teams, and have no limit on out of section.

That's a really good suggestion. If we were to keep the same regions, I think that would solve a lot of the problems. Although, I still think a redraw would be the best solution.

I don't see how they do a Division 2 in club, because teams are here today and gone tomorrow.

I agree a Division 2 is really hard to do in club. There's a small part of me thinks that we could pull something off like Cultimate wanted to do for college and have a specific Elite division. (Kind of like the NBA/NFL, etc) And we could have the elite teams play only each other only at big tournaments and market it like "professional Ultimate". I think that would be much more appeasing to the general public. However, I don't like it because of all the problems we would run into. Such as, if nobody "owns" the team (like other sports), then who gets to say who makes it or not. I think in the future this could be done though by way of non-profit organizations. All the big cities where elite teams come from have non-profit organizations already and the UPA could use them to put together "elite" teams from each part of the nation. And then Division 2 could be just like it is now with only players that don't make those elite teams. It would be tough though for the UPA to decide what cities would be allowed into the Elite division and to make sure there isn't corruption in the non-profit organizations.
However, It does take away from the Ultimate aspect that anybody has a shot at nationals.

My other thought in setting up a division 2 is split the teams up after Regionals. For an easy example, let's say that they are 8 regions. The Top 2 teams from each region get to go the Division 1 Nationals. The next 2 teams get to go the Division 2 Nationals. Maybe even do a division 3 as well. This would allow teams like Prairie Fire, Arkansas Alum, etc who just couldn't pull out the win to go to Nationals, still get to play other teams from across there nation at about there same caliber.

I think a club regular season would end up being a total cluster f*ck, kind of like college has been. Between "try-out" tourneys, elite divisions, A divisions, B divisions, I don't see what numbers they would go by. Lots of Club tourneys don't let everyone compete for the title. All the best tourneys seem to only occur on the Coasts, making midwest teams travel much farther for anything. The only way I can think of is if they go to the 2 Division set up, and have a counting regular season for A division, and our typical system for B.

I think a regular season at this point would be a cluster. As i've already stated about the amount of work that people have to do. However, here's my initial thoughts on the subject:
I think the UPA needs to pay the Regional Coordinators more money. In doing so, the RC's set up specific tournaments in there region throughout the season. I think the UPA could say that finalized rosters are do by June 15th. That gives all spring for teams to have tryouts, fun tourneys, etc. Then after that, they go to these specific tournaments and compete against each other for ranking purposes (and maybe bids).
The negatives about this are the same as college. This would hurt the little club teams that just want to play at CHC or Solstice, but never register for the UPA or do a roster. The problem with sanctioning right now is that every team at a tournament has to be sanctioned. I think if the UPA would change that then you could do divisions. Such as at solstice you'd have a sanctioned team division and a "recreational" division. Although this would cause smaller teams to never get to play the good teams.
I also feel that with a successful regular season then you could eliminate sectionals. Based on teams rankings you could them sort them out into a Division I Regionals and Division 2 Regionals.

[DougFunnie13]

That's the big thing me and Terrell are pushing for (Terrell is also going). I personally think we should do 8 regions like in college to lessen the travel time for teams. I think 6 is not enough. However, I think we should redraw new regions (not like the college 8) to take in consideration big cities and proximity of teams. (ie..it's not fair that tulsa and fayetteville are 1 1/2 away and in different regions...when the next closest competitive club team to fayetteville is ?????) Most of the regions have complaints about travel times to Regionals.

I'm not for sure what kind of wildcard system I'm in favor of yet.

So 8 regions and 2 bids each to nationals? No strength wildcards or go to 20 teams like college? Just please get rid of the outdated growth wildcard.

Really?
Cause the UPA is looking at changing everything and will probably try it. That's why I want to make sure they do it right.
They want a Regular Season.
They want a Division II Championships (How should this be determined?)

Any thoughts?

And yeah I realize that the UPA is wanting change stuff, but I don't see the need to redo everything when its not broke. I don't like what they did with the college and don't think they really need to change much in the club like having a regular season and div 2 nationals. I do like PTAC's idea of instead of the out of region restriction being changed to within a certain mileage away. And I like having observers at regionals and nationals so maybe making observers required in the championship brackets if thats not already the case.

My other thought in setting up a division 2 is split the teams up after Regionals. For an easy example, let's say that they are 8 regions. The Top 2 teams from each region get to go the Division 1 Nationals. The next 2 teams get to go the Division 2 Nationals. Maybe even do a division 3 as well. This would allow teams like Prairie Fire, Arkansas Alum, etc who just couldn't pull out the win to go to Nationals, still get to play other teams from across there nation at about there same caliber.

I like this idea, but if your goal was to Nationals and you don't qualify for that but qualify for the div 2 nationals...its gonna be a hard sell to get those teams to go. Especially since its a nationals and most of the teams would have to by plane tickets and rent cars. I just think most would turn this down.

[Endzone]

So 8 regions and 2 bids each to nationals? No strength wildcards or go to 20 teams like college? Just please get rid of the outdated growth wildcard.

Still going back and forth on this....i think an automatic 2 bids each isn't fair. I'm not opposed to the 20 team format like college now. But definitely no more growth wildcard.

And yeah I realize that the UPA is wanting change stuff, but I don't see the need to redo everything when its not broke

I agree in general that the current system works. In my opinion, I think some of the "broken" parts are coming from:
1) Lower club teams having to pay $40 a player for UPA dues, only to lose at sectionals. (ie Troy's Bucket last season....Rawhide the season before). They want to establish a regular season so you feel like you're getting something for your money

2) I understand your point about some teams aiming for Nationals not wanting to go to a division 2 if they lost, but I think a lot of teams would like that. For example, Hayride knows it will be very hard to ever beat the top 2 women's teams in the central region. But I think they would love to go to a div 2 nationals and compete against other teams at there level to compete for a division 2 title. That's why they are looking into going to the south region this year. Jeremy--- Do you think that arkansas team 2 years ago that lost to El Diablo would have taken a bid to a division 2 Nationals if that was how it worked?

3) From a business standpoint, the UPA has a hard time marketing Club Ultimate (other than Nationals) because it really doesn't have its hand in anything but that. If tournaments were having to be sanctioned by them and considered "regular season" then the UPA could go to businesses and sponsors and give them a guaranteed "showing" at so many tournaments throughout the season. Right now, the UPA can't call up Coke or Gatorade and promise to put up banners at Solstice per se, because they are not a part of it. Easy marketability if the UPA owns the entire season. Especially if the UPA holds a series of Elite regular season tournaments, where they could get a sports channel to maybe show the games, etc.

Although I really do like how Ultimate is now with anybody being able to host tournaments and such, I understand the end goal of making Ultimate more legitimate looking and games more meaningful, then winning a case of beer at Solstice, etc during the season.

[eWhales]

I also agree that the current system for club is working. I really hope that they do not implement the changes that they made for college, it’s very inconvenient for everyone and I’m not sure that it is making things anymore fair or standardized.

I think that both suggestions about somehow changing the set-up of the regions would be beneficial. Either one of these solutions or something similar would definitely help everyone out.

My question is what is the overall goal of the UPA? Are they making these changes because they want to better the system for the ultimate teams themselves or are they trying to create a more professional sports atmosphere?

I think that if they are simply trying to improve upon things then not very much needs to be changed, just the few items we have all agreed on with regions, wild cards, and such. However if they are trying to create a format that is like all other club and “professional” sports then I think in the end they will have to implement a class or division system. This is because it appeals to wider range of people and is more organized. If you look at soccer, hockey or any other sport they have championships at every division level. The thing is that each division really is its own separate entity. Teams move up or down based on their records for 2 or 3 years, but the teams that lose at division 1 nationals are finished for that season they do not get the option of moving down to compete because teams in division two compete for those spots. I think eventually this could work for ultimate but it would really change the dynamics Ultimate in general. I am not sure how willing teams would be to adjust to a system like this. It would basically be an overhaul of the current system, and would be pointless if there were only a few teams willing to compete in division 2.

Zone, I like your suggestion about the 2 and 3 teams from Nationals competing at a division 2 Nationals, but at the same time I feel like it might take away from those true “division 2” type teams who deserve to compete against teams their caliber.

[Endzone]

I also agree that the current system for club is working.

The problem is that the general ultimate players didn't voice there opinions in the "Ultimate Revolution".
The UPA sent out survey's and gathered information back in 2008. Then they held 4 summits in 4 big cities to gather more opinions. Then they put together the Strategic Plan.

From those results it showed that the MAJORITY wanted:
1) A regular season
2) A Division 2
3) Restructure of the regions

I personally filled out a survey that said I thought everything was fine in both college and club except for the redrawing of the regions and a few other things.

The problem is that the survey findings says otherwise. So if the so-called majority by vote wants these changes, then the UPA is going to have to make them happen.

We can sit here and talk now about how we like club season the way it is, but then we should've pushed that opinion harder back in 2008 during the survey. The UPA wants these changes to happen, so that's why I want to make sure they happen right.

[DougFunnie13]

I reponded to that survey and told them to keep things the same except for the regions and wildcards. I never heard what the results were from that survey. Apparently either most of the ultimate community didn't take the time to do that survey (which is what I suspect) or we are in the minority for these changes.

So I guess since we are getting these changes whether we want them or not, I just hope that its nothing too drastic. I can see them definately wanting to follow what they did in college with the UPA sanctioned events. But if there's no size wildcard then what would be the purpose of them?

[wax6xaw]

Zone, you asked about div 1 & 2 for nationals - and would have Arkansas gone to nationals 2 a couple years ago? I'm not speaking for the entire team but I do not think we would have gone to this lower level national tourney.

I agree with Doug that everyones goal is nationals - and a nationals #2 isn't the
same....especially buying plane tickets, hotels and getting the time off of work in less than three weeks (expensive) to finish as the 17th/21st best team in america is not worth it to me personally.

I know everyone has different perspectives on ultimate and having another nationals could bring the sport to another elite level, but I can almost guarantee that Arkansas would not have gone.

[Endzone]

Thanks wax,
That's exactly what I was curious about and something I'm definitely going to bring up if they try and do a division 2 like that.

Do you have any suggestions as to better changes they could make?

[Endzone]

I know that most of you (especially college kids) aren't really caring about this. But this thing could be huge for the growth and devlepment of club ultimate.

The Task Force has started online discussions (in a really sh*tty yahoo group...i wish they'd make a sweet message board like this). Anyway, The UPA is still looking at changing everything (Divisions, regular seasons, elite showcases, boundaries). Right now they have people researching what "other sports" do; such as Canada and UK Ultimate, Soccer, Lacrosse, etc and US amatuer/pro sport leagues and things like that to see which ones we could model after.

What I would really like to do before I leave next Friday is to get a group of interested people together, grab some beers, and discuss these changes and ideas that could be implemented. I'm not sure if their is a perfect solution for Ultimate right now, but I'd like to have a variety of ideas than just my own to present to the committee.

[DougFunnie13]

I think thats a great idea Zoner...and much easier than trying to discuss over the message board. I'd be up for meeting and coming up with some ideas with a group of people.

[quattro]

I doubt i would be much help but i would like to get together give what little imput i can.

[Endzone]

So, my plane just landed and I just got home and my head is just exploding with ideas, thoughts, and excitement from this weekend.

First off, I had so much fun and cannot even begin to explain the experience that i had. Just the fact that I was in a room with such a diverse group of ultimate players all with their own thoughts, feelings, and emotions when it comes to ultimate..it was incredible. Just chatting with them about everything and hearing other people's/communities take on everything like leagues, structure, college, alcoholism in ultimate, etc. I now have such a broader perspective of the sport and new angles to consider everything from.

As far as the club restructuring process goes....i can't tell you much. We got so much accomplished this weekend, but things are far from done. But what i wanted to tell everybody was this: AWESOME things are coming!!!!! Not just for club, but for Ultimate in general, the UPA is finally kicking into gear and are doing so much for the sport. Tom, the new CEO, is so motivated to bring Ultimate up to a new level. I was very skeptical of him and some of the ideas at first, but after the weekend of conversations that I had, he's going to take us in a very positive direction. There are some ultimate players that aren't going to like some changes, and the general community is going to be very hesitant because they don't like change, but we should embrace it and look toward the future.

As for as implementation goes, the UPA should have proposals ready about June/July. The general public won't really get to see anything till probably December though. And hopefully they will start some incremental changes in the 2011 club season.

But beyond just this club stuff, be ready for some other big stuff happening to ultimate over this year and the next few years. I'm so excited. I'll be glad to talk with you guys about stuff if you want to know more. I can't really share a lot of the specific stuff with you about the restructuring process though before it goes through the next few phases.

[DougFunnie13]

geez...such a tease. Sounds very interesting though.